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Why I support Occupy Vancouver

Blog posts reflect the views of their authors.
A sign at the Occupy Wall St. action
A sign at the Occupy Wall St. action
Occupy Wall Street v. 2.0 Marches by
Occupy Wall Street v. 2.0 Marches by

When I tell my activists friends about the Occupy Vancouver action on October 15th their initial response is: "who's organizing it?" My response is, "Who cares?"

Unless you have been living under a rock, you have heard about Occupy Wall Street. In case you haven't here it is in a nut shell. Adbusters (yeah I know) put the call out this summer to set up a tent village in Wall Street on September 17th with not much of an explanation. The hacker group Anonymous started pushing the meme, but it did not get much traction. Reports vary on the number of people who showed up, but the NYPD blocked the would be occupiers, so they opted to occupy a near by park.

In the style of the Spanish occupations of this summer, the campers started holding general assemblies in what seemed like a leaderless encampment. This went on for about a week, but the mainstream media pretty much ignored the action. Then the cops pepper sprayed four women during a march, the mainstream media went apeshit and the rest as they said is herstory.

Since the media frenzy took hold, high profile lefties like Cornell West have attached themselves to the action. The New York subway drivers union and the Wobblies have endorsed it. But most importantly dozens of similar occupations have been called around the world, including one right here in Vancouver.

So why all the skepticism by the left in this city? I think it's because like the Canuck riots, the left can't claim it, they didn't start it, and they don't know who's putting it on. When questioned on twitter, the person who holds the OccupyVancouver account said "I'm just a guy that couldn't afford to go to NYC. I made a twitter page. But we ALL made this movement."

Like the New York occupation, the Vancouver one was based on a meme, an idea, and picked up by the person who had the gumption and not by the self appointed managers of "the movement." As an anarchist, I find this exciting and inspiring. So far the Facebook page has over 800 confirmed guests. This is more than the anti-Cheney protests of last week gathered, and I am willing to bet, when it's all said and done that this thing is going to be huge.

So to all my fellow anarchists, lefties and anti-authoritarians, I urge to take part in this action and share your ideas with the people you meet. A lot of the energy behind this is coming from young people who are honestly outraged by what's happening to the world. This is an great opportunity to connect with these folks and increase our capacity.

Finally, to the Occupy Vancouver organizers, I strongly suggest that you acknowledge in your public communications that Vancouver is already occupied territory and it belongs to the Coast Salish.

In the spirit of total resistance

the stimulator

Occupy Vancouver will take place on October 15th at the Vancouver Art Gallery
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stimulator (The Stimulator)
Vancouver BC
Member since April 2009


504 words



thanks friend,



total resistance.



Bring the Noise: Can “Occupy Wall Street” Revive Left Activism?

This article by Mickey Z pretty much sums up the political purity of the "left"

words on occupation/colonization

This smells like a trap - Why I don't support this one

OccupyWallSt is a very interesting phenomena.  I can't say that it's effective, or that it has accomplished anything so far as far as its goals.  In fact, I don't even know what the goals of OccupyWallSt are, since they haven't been able to clearly articulate them.  All the literature seems to be Crimethinc means Libertarian Ranting.  We can agree that corporatism as it is today is bad, and that it needs to stop.  I just don't think that occupying anywhere but Wall St. is going to be effective.

What bother me about OccupyVancouver in particular is the fact that people aren't learning from the mistakes of the past.  People are still organizing protests via Facebook, which uses REAL NAMES!  Since we know that the RCMP uses Facebook to gather evidence on activists, and then runs these names against CPIC, PRIME, JUSTIN and other databases to profile and conduct physical surveillance on activists, it makes no sense to say you're attending OccupyVancouver or any of the planning meetings.
Combined with the fact that OccupyVancouver is using W2MediaCafe to plan their actions, an organization that took Olympic money for their Cultural Olympiad exhibit, it's almost like OccupyVancouver is trying to get full profiles and dossiers on all of the participants and are probably investigating the ability to round up all the organizers prior to the event if they consider it a real threat.
Of course, it won't be, because it's at the ART GALLERY!  The same Art Gallery where almost every protest happens, as well as the gathering place of Vancouver Critical Mass.  The only people who will be pissed off by a bunch of people occupying the Art Gallery is going to be the City who would rightly like to have the grass not be killed by people like it was during the Olympics.
It really bugs me when people disregard everything that was learned during the Olympics and the G20 about organizing against the state, and what the police are willing to do to silence dissent.  Those were hard-won lessons that people should remember, but instead it seems that like lambs to the slaughter people are repeating the same mistakes.  This also makes me extremely skeptical about this event, and whether it is actually thought out or just a "Me too" exercise, or worse, a trap!
The revolution may be tweeted, but it won't be on Facebook!

People are not born knowing

I can agree that using FB and W2 is disappointing, but I think that most of these folks are not experienced orgaziers or who have been informed about the lessons from the Olympics and the G20. These are not folks who read the VMC, these are folks who for better or worse find out about shit through FedBook and Twitter.

I think it's more productive to use this opportunity to share what you know to a group peeps eager for change than to put the whole thing down.

As far as Crimethinc and Adbusters, a lot of folks started their politicization through these publishers. I myself made two films inspired by Crimethinc because I find them a useful as way to introduce people to Anarchism.

Damn spellcheck

That should say "Crimethinc meets Libertarianism".  Take the standard 'The corporations don't give a fuck about you" message, which I agree with, and then pair it with some crazy "Buy Gold" shit and you got the stuff coming out of Occupy Wall St. as far as the literature is concerned.  Whenever I hear "Illuminati" mentioned over and over again, I start to think that these people don't have much credibility.

My critique of OccupyVancouver is rather light, and mostly made up of common sense things that we learned.  If I was truly trying to attack this, I would have outed some people by now for their stupidity.

That being said, what would an occupation of the Art Gallery actually do?  Vancouver isn't a capital of Global Capitalism, it's a capital of Global Mining.  Bentall Center would make far more sense since that's where both banks and mining companies do business.  Occupy Bay Street makes sense, and protests on the hill make sense, but camping at the Art Gallery?

Andre Guimond's picture

People can and will learn for themselves

Hey infil00p,

I was wondering where you saw this "crazy 'Buy Gold' shit" and "Illuminati" references mentioned in regards to the Occupy Vancouver event/movement? I can't seem to find anything of the sort anywhere.

Granted, there are some problems with assembling at the Art Gallery, although I haven't seen any calls to "occupy" the Art Gallery as you suggest - but strategic issues aside, it's a hell of a public place to assemble! Not a bad idea from that perspective.

And sure, we should all be more careful about our use of Facebook, but two questions arise: how are people supposed to know about these privacy concerns? Unfortunately not everybody reads the VMC (yet). And, more importantly, are there alternatives to organizing via Facebook that are just as easy to setup, have access to as wide an audience, are more secure, etc.? I despise Facebook, but as awful as it is at least we can still use it to do some good until something like Diaspora* or ZSocial can replace it for organizing purposes.

Otherwise, although you bring up some valid concerns, and I would hope that some people new to organizing are hearing them, do you think it's more effective to criticize something like Occupy Vancouver, which (like Occupy Wall St) is at an incredibly early stage and seems to be made up of people relatively new to this kind of thing, or instead to offer advice, to support, and more than anything, to listen and encourage? What's more likely to offer guidance and hope and direction? Is outright criticism the most effective avenue, or could an attempt to understand and meet people where they are perhaps work best? I don't know the answer, and I'm sure it depends on the situation, but either way it's worth thinking about.

On a related note, you might be interested, as might any other experienced or long-time organizers that might be reading this, to take a minute to read this article, and especially the comments by David Marty in regards to similar experiences in Spain:



The Damage is already done

The problem is that people's names are ALREADY on Facebook.  No magical social network will save you.  Not Diaspora, not Identica, not ZSocial and not even Crabgrass.  While these things help, I think that anything that causes you to leave a trace on the Internet or anywhere else is bad.  The damage is already partly done.  I don't have a time machine to be all like "Hey you!  You should attend this, but don't say you're doing it on Facebook, since the Feds are watching!".  I can make the information available on how the VPD and the RCMP crack down on dissent, like I've been doing, and I can criticize it hoping that someone will not make the same mistake that the Occupy Vancouver people already have done.  I consider criticism the only way at this point, since others have tried to suggest things to OccupyVancouver only to be shot down.

Now, as far as your comments, in fact there has been a call to Occupy the Vancouver Art Gallery lawn on October 15th.  This call is on this site, as well as on Facebook, and despite numerous suggestions to go elsewhere, Occupy Vancouver seems intent on going to what is already public space and using it exclusively as a "home base" to march to other targets.  These plans are public, and are probably already printed of and are in a file in the VPD's Criminal Intelligence Unit offices.

Secondly, the whole meme of "Occupy Vancouver".  Vancouver IS already occupied by settlers who took this land from the Coast Salish people!  Saying that we're going to Occupy Vancouver seems pretty ridiculous.  There's no analysis on why you can't take what worked in Tahir Square and plunk it in NYC and expect the same thing to happen, let alone Vancouver.  There are serious colonial issues that need to be acknowledged and addressed, and even the title of the event "Occupy Vancouver" somewhat exacerbates this more than anything.

 I saw the "Buy Gold" stuff in the "Occupy Handbook" that someone re-tweeted on the Occupy Vancouver account.  I read the handbook quickly, and found that it went straight into ranting about the Fed, and the countless robber barons, and went straight to conspriacy theory.

As for Facebook and organizing, here's a simple test to figure out whether or not you should post something/attend something on Facebook, or hell, just ANY WEBSITE ON THE INTERNET:

  1. Is there any way you could lose your income or be imprisoned for posting/attending an event on Facebook?
  2. Is there anyone who shouldn't know that you're attending this event, or saying this thing on Facebook?
  3. Will this incriminate you or anyone you know or are friends with at a later time?
  4. Will your friends on Facebook snitch on you to Private Investigators or the police?

If you answered YES to ANY of these questions, you shouldn't post it on the Internet unless you're prepared for the conequences.  Unlike the offline world, everything you say can be traced back to you unless you taking measures otherwise.

Finally, how did people organize BEFORE Facebook? They had real friends and went outside and met people.  Any movement that is too reliant on technology is built on a stack of cards, and will most definitely fail.   There's way too many people who sit on Twitter, post and post and think that just by tweeting, they're changing the world!  Without actually doing real organizing, which means doing boring ass, but vital work.  This STILL works, and Facebook is a crutch that people are using, and it's not an organizing tool.  In fact, it's the best new tool that Law Enforcement has ever gotten.

The "serious colonial issues"

The "serious colonial issues" you bring up do not and will not resonate with people beyond natives themselves and the narrow identity politic milieu of the far left. If the native sovereignty issue were taken to a vote in this country, any remants of exclusive native rights would be overwhelmingly voted down by Canadians of every non-native ethnic group, who statistically regard such rights as institutional racism. I don't disagree with you that colonialism is an ongoing problem or that Canada is, fundamentally, a colonial state, but framing those concerns in terms of "occupied Coast Saalish territory" is just going to turn the vast majority of people off, for obvious reasons - most folks already have landlords (capitalists and the Canadian state), they don't need or want another as well (Coast Saalish band governments). Economic stratification and inequality, on the other hand, are something that everybody in the working or middle class can relate to and get behind, including indigenous people.

Just my two cents.

but this is occupied coast salish territory

I don't think it's useful to predict who will resonate with ideas of ongoing colonial issues, or who would vote what around inherant indigenous rights.  I think it is important to prioritize increasing awareness of said issues.

Of course other issues that more obviously relate to diverse groups are also important subjects to identify for the growing understanding of the unity we all have in being the working class, or under classes whichever the specific identity of each one of us.

I believe that native sovereignity does not equal dictatorship, and this is a shallow interpretation to worry about indigenous peoples trying to be our bosses or landlords.  I have never heard a indigenous sovereignity activist, land defender, or warrior make allusions to the 'rightness' of indigenous domination over non native canadian inhabitants.

Again, I think it is a waste of time to predict or worry about what "vaste majorit[ies]" will or will not be turned on or off by.  What is worth time and effort are solidarity and struggles for social justice.

Andre Guimond's picture

infil00p, I agree with you


I agree with you for the most part. Organizing on Facebook is fraught with issues. People need to weigh the risks of organizing publically with the benefits it affords. Recognizing colonial legacies is coming late (or not at all) for most of the Occupy movements. "Real," face-to-face organizing is often more effective than online organizing.

Where we differ, I guess, is that I personally see it as potentially more effective and having a more positive impact to get involved if one has concerns rather than to publically criticize a movement (especially ostensibly left movements that seem to have their hearts in the right place) without offering any effective solutions. That's just my view. I have no way of knowing which method would actually be more effective except to test it out, which I hope to do on Oct 15.

Otherwise, I have to point out a few concerns I had with your comments.

You said (in response to my question around occupying the Art Gallery):

" fact there has been a call to Occupy the Vancouver Art Gallery lawn on October 15th.  This call is on this site, as well as on Facebook, and despite numerous suggestions to go elsewhere, Occupy Vancouver seems intent on going to what is already public space and using it exclusively as a "home base" to march to other targets.  These plans are public, and are probably already printed of and are in a file in the VPD's Criminal Intelligence Unit offices."

First, occupying the "Art Gallery lawn" is a hell of a lot different from occupying the actual Gallery itself, as your original comment suggested. That's why I made my comment. Anyway, not a big deal, just a minor point of confusion. Otherwise, though, you seem to suggest that NO plans should be made public since they'll inevitably end up with the VPD. Okay, so how is anyone supposed to organize anything then? We know the police will find out, no matter what organizing methods or tools are used. That's not the point. The point is, are the risks inherent to organizing (police survellience, social marginalization, despair if it doesn't work as expected, etc.) worth going through with it anyway? If your criticism is that the people planning Occupy Vancouver didn't weigh the risks carefully enough and that a proper risk assessment should have dissuaded planning the occupation in the first place, then okay, maybe that's valid. But just pointing out that the police will find out doesn't help much, that's pretty obvious.

You also said:

"I saw the "Buy Gold" stuff in the "Occupy Handbook" that someone re-tweeted on the Occupy Vancouver account.  I read the handbook quickly, and found that it went straight into ranting about the Fed, and the countless robber barons, and went straight to conspriacy theory."

Perhaps you should read the Occupy Handbook again. It came from Occupy Wall St, not Occupy Vancouver. And yes, there is some "buy gold" stuff and references to "Illumanti Gods" in there. Those references are on exactly 3 out of 55 pages of the document, and it's clear that even then they've been edited (or negotiated) heavily - there's almost no text on those pages! It seems like the document was a collaborative effort (there's a ton of info and a range of very diverse views), and that the people working on it made every effort to include everyone (including conspiracy theorists and end-civers) but also tried to minimize the potentially more destructive or misleading strains as much as possible.

What you didn't mention is what the rest of the document covers, which is a pretty good overview of how Wall St (ie. the financial sector) works, who the richest people in America are, how they affect policy, stuff like that. If you actually took the time to read it rather than just use it as a way to write off an entire movement you might find out it's actually not that bad.

Anyway, I'm sure you have your reasons for criticizing the Occupy Vancouver movement, and I'm sure some of them are perfectly valid concerns - which, incidentally, I suspect that the OV people might really appreciate hearing. From reading their site and Twitter feed, they seem really open to taking feedback, getting people involved, engaging both excited newbies and cynical around-the-blockers. We could probably all learn a lot from each other, if we were able to put aside our fears and egos and try to work together.

Criticism, especially the online variety, is easy because it's risk-free. It means you don't have to do anything, and you get to say you were right if it fails.


"Otherwise, though, you seem to suggest that NO plans should be made public since they'll inevitably end up with the VPD. Okay, so how is anyone supposed to organize anything then?"

There's a huge difference between a poster and a Facebook group.  A poster I can put on any wall, lamp post or power pole, and people off the street can see it.  It can be ripped down, but it also gives the people who want to go to this event Anonymity.  Facebook people "attending" aren't anonymous, despite there being 2000 of them at this point.

"We know the police will find out, no matter what organizing methods or tools are used. That's not the point. The point is, are the risks inherent to organizing (police survellience, social marginalization, despair if it doesn't work as expected, etc.) worth going through with it anyway?"

There's a huge difference betwene them finding out via a poster and wondering who these people are, and them finding out exactly who are going!  Also, organizing meetings in spaces such as W2 which have a ton of CCTV cameras setup is equally stupid.  It's better to organize at Spartacus, or some other venue that doesn't have CCTV cameras outside watching it, because even though it's also under surveillance, the VPD has to pay someone to wait outside it.  At least make it a pain in the ass for the cops instead of just giving them this info.

"If your criticism is that the people planning Occupy Vancouver didn't weigh the risks carefully enough and that a proper risk assessment should have dissuaded planning the occupation in the first place, then okay, maybe that's valid. But just pointing out that the police will find out doesn't help much, that's pretty obvious."

That IS my critique in a nutshell. The police can find out that an event is happening just like everyone else, but the WHO is going to that event shouldn't be found out.  Everyone is responsible for their own privacy, but when you make Facebook a primary venue for organzing something, you're basically incriminating innocent people.

Finally, why in the hell would I say that I was going to support Occupy Vancouver on the Internet?  That sounds completely stupid, since it creates more evidence for the VPD and the RCMP.

Stay Safe!

Andre Guimond's picture

Agreed, again

Again, I agree with you on all the points that you're making. (Although, obviously, just because someone said on Facebook that they're going to attend something doesn't make it so. But the point still stands that organizing on Facebook should perhaps be a last resort.) Otherwise, there's no argument about the facts, except for the other concerns about your misrepresentation of the Occupy Handbook I pointed out, and which really aren't a big deal.

What I was trying to say with all this is, you have a good perspective - have you shared it in a constructive way with the Occupy Vancouver organizers? Of course I don't expect you to answer that considering all the security concerns you've (rightfully) cited; it's just my opinion that your (and activists' in general) experience could be used in such a way to support this nascent movement as it learns and grows, rather than to contribute to stunting its growth before it even gets a chance to walk or speak.

I support #occupywallstreet

Divide and conquer.  This has been the most effective way of keeping any resistance movement from succeding.  The occupywallstreet movement seeks to end this and bring the 99% together to fight the real enimies.  

Here is the delcaration of the occupation of new york city.

If this isnt the movement then Im sorry to say, I think there probably never will be one. Maybe a reactionary one when shit hits the fan as the econmy implodes. but that will truely unorganized and has the potential to be very ugly.

The Vancouver protest is in solidarity with a global protest -



Rebels without a cause

"Libertarian ranting".  Couldn't have said it better myself. 


Promo video?

Have you considered doing a promo video for this?  Could be a great way to spread the word.  

Get Involved

If you have concerns about the protest, your voice is needed. Go to the GA, email the committee, share your concerns. This is your chance to help us succeed.

Nice rant

Nice rant.  Too bad it serves no good purpose, other than to show everyone reading these posts that you know very little about things.  It would appear that you are part of a problem. This problem is what cripples and destroys civilizations and societies everywhere.  The earth is not ours.  You, like me, are guests.  We all have to work toward harmony between ourselves and the earth that we live on.  We MUST stop placing barriers between us.  Religion, Politics, Government, Clubs & Groups - these are not about gathering for common interests - these (and so many others) are part of isolating ourselves from others.  Let's all start living the change we want to see in the world.


Thanks for your post


  fuck the middle class and


fuck the middle class and those who were once middle class and no longer are shouldn't be encouraged to fight for a return to such privilege. Furthermore,  as far as the majority of the populace of this state 'voting' down the rights of Indigenous people, that in of itself is one of the And to state that by bringing about the recognition of the fact that we are on occupied land, which we are, there is somehow an incitement of further subjugation of peeps, especially whites, through band councils is laughable. Band councils are propped up by the white supremacist state in order to trick Indigenous folks into believing we somehow have a stake in this system based on 500 plus years of genocide. And as far as those who are concerned that by bringing about the recognition of being on stolen and occupied land, they somehow are bearing the brunt of institutionalized racism is fucking preposterous, given the relative comfort folks, predominately white, have lived in on the backs of people of color and especially Indigenous folks in a literal sense .

conspiracy theories?

The fed and robber barons, "conspiracy theories"? I always thought that stuff was just called "history."


Also, what is wrong with buying gold. When every government in the world is printing money just watch the price go up. That is basic economics. Look at the price over the past few years. Silver too.

The occupy wall street group

The occupy wall street group is supported by the NYC subway drivers. It's easy to claim you are against capitalism when you are making over $100,000 per year because government has granted you the monopoly driving the bus. Would any of the protesters be willing to drive the bus for a hundred grand per year?

Just another "cause du jour"

Just another "cause du jour" from the angry entitlement/welfare/anarchist class, blaming everybody else for their personal problems.

It's not society's fault you took the wrong major at school, for which there never was any demand in the job market.

It's not society's fault you took all those student loans to fund said wasted education. It's a free society, you made a terrible choice. I would have did the math, BEFORE choosing the major, or the loans, not only to see how much I might owe, but more importantly, checked out the job market for that knowledge and skillset. If it didn't exist, why take out $50k plus of loans? it makes no sense.

All I see at these kinds of protests is just the same old anti-everything crowd, chanting the same old epithets, about the same old things.

Most of the people I know and have talked to, expect a riot, you guys just can't help yourselves.


I,m not anti everything. I,m

I,m not anti everything. I,m anti people like DB being in charge of the guiding values of society. I'm for people fighting against injustice.

I was lucky to go to school, I think. I don't think everyone has that opportunity. I don't have any debt, employment insurance paid my schooling. I have a job I like. I earn a low income, 10-12000 a year. I'm not struggling to try earn more. I live within this income, not complaining. Not looking for a career, or to 'contribute' to the society that allows social injustices to continue.

I am not anti everything, but I am against lots of aspects of the main culture of canadian shit eating public.

I work with teenagers. Canadian teenagers are rascist, homophobic, and sexist. Anyone who thinks Canada isn't these things, doesn't have any significant contact with teenagers in their own context.

I live near the DTES, there is violence there. I don't think your little debt equation is the explanation. I'm glad you reasoned your way clear of this violence, but I find your logic flawed.

Do you know what it means to live paycheck to paycheck? what that phrase means? it means the money runs out within 2 weeks. runs out on or before the next paycheck. Lots of people live this way. DB would suggest they're less intelligent than him/her, I don't know what planet DB is from, but everything is great there, except for us "anti-everythings".

Your the hater DB. It's your world that's sad. Our world is full of struggle and inspiration and human contact, and support, and anguish, and hope.

But who needs hope when you have credit, hey DB...

Rock on and love to freedom fighters!

You are both right and wrong

DB is clearly ignorant to the realities in this city as far as what real opportunities exist for people to be involved in the system and earn a real living.  But you are wrong too. You say you don't want to contribute because you don't approve of the system, you don't want to earn more, but then you complain that you don't earn enough to get by from one pay check to the next? And somehow that is the fault of society? Where is your personal responsibility? By your writing it seems to me that you are fully capable of working and earning a better living than you do now. While I would suggest that opportunities are limited, you don't argue that you lack opportunity. Rather, you argue that you don't want to work or be part of the system. Well sorry my friend, but that is your own damn fault. You can't willfully sit out of society and then expect society to take care of you. Are you planning to continue boycotting society until everything is fixed to your satisfaction? If so, don't cry to me when you starve.


And THAT is the problem with the folk at this protest. There are REAL problems and issues that need to be addressed. But folks like this, selfish spoiled brats, steel the spotlight and make the entire movement look foolish.

you misread

I'm not complaining of my situation, I live simply, and it's been a while since I blew my budget, or didn't have enough to cover an emergency.

If you re read, you'll see I was commenting that many people live paycheck to paycheck. You try to find fault with what I've said, which is a way to ignore the point. People who live paycheck to paycheck are not inferior to DB and VanMan. This is a widespread reality, and creates vulnerability, to random events that are not within the survival budget.

Do you wish to attack me on some small points, and 'read between the lines' about who I am, and blame me for the problems or lack of solution?

Where are you comin from with that? What's your idea?


sooo all the seasoned vancouver activists ...

are bitching about and criticizing the organizing for occupy vancouver, yet they have not been involved in any of the organizing which has been open for anyone to attend??  even after a call out was made by the OV organizers for help from the 'seasoned pros'?

how sad.

Occupy Anywhere

response to:


Why I support Occupy VancouverBLOG POST posted on OCTOBER 1, 2011 by  Stimulator

It's nice to see people waking up to things that affect them.  What I don't get is an article that praises cooperation and solidarity and has to mention this at the end: 

"Finally, to the Occupy Vancouver organizers, I strongly suggest that you acknowledge in your public communications that Vancouver is already occupied territory and it belongs to the Coast Salish.".  

This earth doesn't belong to any of us - Coast Salish, Canadian or otherwise. What we all have to do is learn to "actually" cooperate, and stand side-by-side toward a harmonious humanity.  There is so much to be said about the negative impacts of Capitalism, but there is also much to be said about territories that are previously "occupied".  


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